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#301943 - 04/15/03 09:07 PM Re: are horns better than speakers?(midrange and highs only) Y/N & Why
winslow
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Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 3038
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 Quote:
Originally posted by sqcomp:
Horns also have been noted to have a smaller soundstage width due to the horn design and common installation practices (partly due to size). and the price of horns are a drawback. Don't you think that a great imaging system will have widhth on it's soundstage? I'm almost sure you'll jump to the defence and say that your staging is just fine. I don't care either way. Do you use a pair of tweeters to widen your stage? Even if you have your HLCDs mounted in the windshield vents you'll still have soundstage,tonal, and reflection problems. By the way, how's the soundstage height? I can't imagine that any driver mounted under a dash would have great soundstage height.
Uh...you are so off base it almost isn't funny.

Staging and imaging. Let's think of my scores from this past IASCA Finals- and typical of past scores I have recieved.

Width- 9/10
Height 8/10
Listening position- 9/10

A width score of 9 means that my soundstage slightly exceded the physical boundaries of the car.

A height score of 8 means that my stage was slightly below eye level

Listen position of a 9 means the stage started nearly at my windshield.

Imaging scores-

Far left- 4/5
Left Center- 4/5
Center- 5/5
Right center- 5/5
Right- 5/5

Ok...what about tonality?

High- 8/10
Midrange- 7/10
Midbass- 8/10
Subbass- 10/10

That's a pretty bad, nasally sounding car, huh? No tweeters anywhere in the car. Horns so far back under the dash that you couldn't see them. You problem is that you don't properly understand how a horn in a car works- that is evident by the comment "I can't imagine that any driver mounted under a dash would have great soundstage height."
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#301944 - 04/15/03 09:54 PM Re: are horns better than speakers?(midrange and highs only) Y/N & Why
videocrew
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ok guys, we've all made our points. i think we can all agree that like almost everything else in high quality car audio, horn speakers can sound great provided there is a good install and proper tuning. same goes for regular tweeters, midranges, subwoofers, and everything else
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#301945 - 04/15/03 10:00 PM Re: are horns better than speakers?(midrange and highs only) Y/N & Why
tehguru
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Registered: 04/30/99
Posts: 1398
Loc: Maryland

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 Quote:
Originally posted by sqcomp:
Hmmm...

\:o I don't think I liked your language there... "moderator" :rolleyes: .

First, "Tweeter on steroids". What other term would you have me use to explain to someone who hasn't ever used or maybe even seen a compression driver before? Knowing that a horn had mid-range to tweeter capabilities I stick by my use of "tweeter on steroids".

Regardless of your insinuation on ease of use, the masses of audio enthusiasts, including the manufacturers of the HLCDs, will speak for me. Like I mentioned, due to the size of the pieces (the driver and the horn) you have less flexibility of installation than you do a typical tweeter. Can you be so absent as to ignore the difference in size? You probably can with your negative attitude.

Even your own sponsors say that the tonal qualities of horns (nasaly sound), design problems, you also have high frequency rolloff at 17KHz. Usually this is inaudible though...check your RTA readings! Horns also have been noted to have a smaller soundstage width due to the horn design and common installation practices (partly due to size). and the price of horns are a drawback. Don't you think that a great imaging system will have widhth on it's soundstage? I'm almost sure you'll jump to the defence and say that your staging is just fine. I don't care either way. Do you use a pair of tweeters to widen your stage? Even if you have your HLCDs mounted in the windshield vents you'll still have soundstage,tonal, and reflection problems. By the way, how's the soundstage height? I can't imagine that any driver mounted under a dash would have great soundstage height. This problem can be solved with careful placement but, the "in your face" sound can be a problem. Quite a lot of fellow competitiors think that the ambiance is better with conventional drivers. That is completely up to you, I am not here to question your tastes.

The whole point was, take notice of two properly tuned systems, one with horns and one with conventional drivers, and go with what suits you.

"Moderator", if you will take the time to actually read my posting you might notice that I seconded the opinion of horns being a good item to try. I feel for you being put into such a position and then acting so rashly as to try to call my bluff. I'm not saying I'm right, as this is a very subjective issue, I feel that your language was completely brusque and unnecessary. I am not dumb, I know HLCDs are not tweeters. I have experience with ID and Illusion Audio. See the website and look at the Chrysler 300M, can someone say ID Pro Comp?

Just in case you don't read my entire post, I'll summarize. DOIY! I know HLCDs aren't tweeters, I never said they were! If you have a problem with my phrasing e-mail me and I'll change it! Otherwise we can talk to the rest of the moderators as to our disagreement. We've both been here on Sounddomain for a while, I think by now you would know I'm not an ametuer. I'm troubled by the way you insinuate that I just spout out "BS". My opinions are not wrong, they just differ from yours. Finally, I would rather not get into a flame war with a moderator or anyone else for that matter.

Is this trivial matter settled? I hope so.
So I'm now confused- You claim you "know" Horns are not Tweeters but you keep refering to them as tweeters, you make a comparison saying they are easier to install than Tweeters and you also make an analogy sying Horns are "tweeters on steroids". SO which is, Do you actually know how horns function in a vehicle and how horns actually work, or do you think they are just much larger format Tweeters?

Merriam-Webster Defines "tweeter" as --"a small loudspeaker responsive only to the higher acoustic frequencies and reproducing sounds of high pitch"


now as far as your installation difficulty response--Yes horns are much larger than Tweeters, um..B/c they are not Tweeters. They do play Higher frequncies that Tweeters would also play, but one of the reasons Horns work for providing an extremely accurate soundstage is b/c they play the midrange bands that are critical to staging and imaging. the only other similarity to Tweeters besides playing higher freqs, is that they require a supplamental midrange to round out the bottom midrange octaves. But the similarities between Horns and tweeters stop there, and stop very abruptly.
Liek I said, how many Tweeters, especially Car audio tweeters are there that play down to 500hz or even 1000hz?

Now onto your Staging and Imaging comments. You've basically just spouted off every single Horn "Myth" dating back to the late 80s and early 90s when Horns 1st started being used in Car audio.

Width problems are not anymore characterstic of Horns as they are to conventional driver. I've listened to countless IASCA/USAC/SLAP vehicles whose Width was several inches inside the pillars.
at the 2001 USAC Finals I got a 44 out of 50 in Wdith. It was the highest score given in the category. This past IASCA finals I got a 13 out of 15 in Width.
Stage Height at Finals was an 8 out of 10.And is consistently an 8 or 9 out of 10.
No supplamental tweeters whatsoever. Never have. never will. Its cosnidered heresy to use Supplamental tweeters with ID horns. Again, only people who have no understanding of how horns work in a vehicle, how to install them and how to tune them. think they need supplametal Tweeters and massive amounts of equalization.

Ambiance score was a 9 out of 10. No rear fill. NO Tweeters.

and just by your choice of words its obvious that you have little understanding of how horns work in a vehicle. I dont care if you've installed a pair in a vehicle, which By the way was a nice install, altho I would have moved the horn out another 2" and back under the dash farther.
To quote you again "I can't imagine that any driver mounted under a dash would have great soundstage height."

You are right on this comment-you cant imagine, b/c you dont know and have no 1st hand knowledge real world knowledge on how horns even fucntion in a vehicle, and you have probally never really listened to a vehicle which had horns properly installed in it.
Just b/c you fixed a leaky sink faucet one day, doenst make you a plumber. and just b/c you carpeted a box one day, doenst make you a carpenter or an upholster.

Which Btw--You said that the 300m has Cd1pro comps installed in them? which is it CD1Pro or comps? its obvious the 300M has Cd1po mini horns installed in them. Comp refers to the full size bodies which have been discontinued. There is no such thing as a cd1Pro comp.

now as far as Price--Cd1 Pro can be found for Under $500. I sold my Old cd2 with mini bodies for $350.00. Even at retail- price versus performance they are priced similarly to any High end speaker like Dynaudio, Focal, Scan Speak, Seas, etc...and the advantage is horns dont take more than a Day to install and stage and image almost perfectly out of the box, unlike conventional speakers which can take over a day to angle and set up properly to stage and image anywhere close to horns out of the box.

Now onto your commenst about ID claiming that all horns have a nasal quality. Perhaps you should reread ID's Website. b/c After they list the common "myth" disadvantages they list HOw ID horns overcome them.
in Regards to your coloration and "nasal" comment---QUoted form ID website--
"Coloration??
All our horns are made of a doubly-thick Urethane compound to minimize any distortion to the sound. Also, we designed a special multi-flare rate into the horn to maintain directivity without coloration. Finally, we created a passive crossover (the CS1.X, packaged with our horn sets) with a built-in attenuation and multi-frequency equalization circuit so our entry-level horn sets can be tuned for a smooth frequency response."

So you can be troubled by my comments, by anyone else comments, that is your right and your problem if truth troubles you. Winslow and I will go on all day long when it comes to horns.
but just as its your right to be troubled-its my right to inform others, of BS when i read it, just so they dont continue to spread this decade old myths about horns.
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#301946 - 04/15/03 10:59 PM Re: are horns better than speakers?(midrange and highs only) Y/N & Why
lownloud87
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 145
Loc: florida

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haha...i think this man just wanted some input...not an arguement.
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#301947 - 04/15/03 11:38 PM Re: are horns better than speakers?(midrange and highs only) Y/N & Why
sqcomp
SD Roadrunner (Sanus Domanus Ultra-Sonicus Ad Infinitum)


Registered: 07/03/99
Posts: 3866
Loc: Portland, OR

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You know, it's funny, I'll make some points and then be done with you two. I have not EVER said that I would not use HLCDs or that I wouldn't recommend them. I would be errant if I did. Iím sure you two can agree on this.

Your brusque and flaming comments about me are not appreciated and uncalled for. I have not insulted you, especially as directly as you have to me. It's too bad you wear the robe of moderator so brazenly as to think your opinion is the only one.

I want you to answer some questions.

Do you tune your horns?

How many equalizers do you have in your competition vehicles?

Are tweeters a waste of money? If they are, why do the masses use them even with HLCDs firmly on the market within a good price range?

Why does Image Dynamics publish the low points of horns where you say they don't exist?

Why is someone who doesn't exactly agree with you "spouting off B.S."? Are you saying that there is no coloration or soundstage challenges with horns? If you say yes, I can completely accept that. Iíll kindly disagree though.

How would you have me explain... IN LAYMEN'S TERMS...the description of an HLCD? I DO understand that a compression driver is not a tweeter. That's not the point of my description. My description was merely for effect. Give me a better description in one short phrase of a compression driver. I will use that instead.

I am not here to spout off "B.S.", I am not here to make anyone mad. I would ask you to refrain from throwing an opinion as "B.S.", I won't do that to you. I am troubled that there is only one version of the "truth"...yours. I can easily agree that with a good setup, that might take a person that is experienced with horns, you can get good height. Are we looking at a 10 out of 10 score? no. I am not here to criticize your setup. I want you to know that I congratulate you on your successes with Image Dynamics equipment. You want me to know that you've been successful with the equipment. I DO NOT CHALLENGE THAT, okay?

My final point is this:

There are people out here that disagree with you on HLCDs. I don't particularly go that far from enjoying a well set up pair of horns myself, I never said I did. Can we agree there?

I do believe though that after seeing the work, you do owe me an apology. Not for the facts which we're in at least some agreement on but your rude and inflammatory comments about the work you've seen presented in my behalf. You insinuate that the work is amateur...if you think for one minute that the hours spent on those vehicles are amateur you are mistaken. You have taken into question my work ethic and my artistic impression of what a good system setup is. I have not done that to you.

YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY.
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#301948 - 04/16/03 08:03 AM Re: are horns better than speakers?(midrange and highs only) Y/N & Why
winslow
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Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 3038
Loc: Charlotte, NC

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Apologize b/c you are wrong with what you said? Your insight to how horns work and function was wrong, much less nearly you whole argument was wrong as well. What ahould I apologize for? Correcting you? Or you spouting off age old myths that have little basis in reality?
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#301949 - 04/16/03 09:34 AM Re: are horns better than speakers?(midrange and highs only) Y/N & Why
MOAF
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Registered: 04/30/01
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 Quote:
Originally posted by sqcomp:

Are tweeters a waste of money? If they are, why do the masses use them even with HLCDs firmly on the market within a good price range?

The masses use tweeters over horns because there are so many myths out there about horns that people are afraid to try them. Also as you noted they can be difficult to mount.

I've used horns and tweeters. I would still be using horns but they simply won't fit in my vehicle without losing the heater blower. I'm considering getting rid of it to go back to horns.

As far as equalization--I have tweeters and I still use a dual 30 band eq. (Rane ME-60).

If horns will physically fit, I would give them a try. You can find the CD-2's on Ebay for around $275 generally. If you don't like them, they won't be hard to sell for the same price you paid. I say give them a try. Don't get caught up in the you need 30 bands of eq, they sound nasally, etc., etc., etc. As with any speaker, you have to hear them to determine whether youlike them.

Andy

Andy

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#301950 - 04/16/03 01:46 PM Re: are horns better than speakers?(midrange and highs only) Y/N & Why
tehguru
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Registered: 04/30/99
Posts: 1398
Loc: Maryland

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 Quote:
Originally posted by sqcomp:
YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY.
No, I think you owe Winslow and I an apology, for spouting off riduclous statements about horns and Tweeters and then not having any factual backup or experince to reinforce your claims, thus leaving us little choice but to step in and correct your statements so Other readers are not misled into further spreading myths about horns and what horns are and how they function.
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#301951 - 04/16/03 02:23 PM Re: are horns better than speakers?(midrange and highs only) Y/N & Why
csuThe2ndComing
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Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 1972
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 Quote:
Originally posted by sqcomp:
YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY.
first you spout BS then cry when someone calls you on it.... what a baby, go home.
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#301952 - 04/16/03 08:25 PM Re: are horns better than speakers?(midrange and highs only) Y/N & Why
winslow
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Registered: 11/13/99
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Loc: Charlotte, NC

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Really.

There is a Justin Timberlake song just for you "Cry Me a River."

I was thinking on the way home from work about the "masses" of horn cars that use tweeters...and I couldn't think of too many that used tweeters and horns, much less any successful horn cars that used tweeters. Having to use tweeters for horns to get a high stage and blah blah blah is propagated on the internet by uninformed, uneducated people like yourself- you only have to look as far to Steve Head's "tutorial" on horns to find more of it (Steve is a nice guy, but WAY off base on the horn thang).

So what do I do when someone is spouting off the "truth" like you did? Shut them up with some nice hard facts and trackrecords/scores. You want to be an expert on something you oblivously know very little about- you even got the models of the horns on your webpage misnamed, why should I believe anything else you say?
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