#1725036 - 10/25/09 05:36 PM
designing my system....questions
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swanjm5
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Registered: 10/15/09
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Ok, i'm relatively new to this, but have been reading tons...still have some questions. Any advice is highly appreciated, as i'm trying to pull the trigger on all of this in the next week or 2.
I'm interested in getting good SQ....not ruining my ears with huge SPL. Also, 99.8% of the time i'm the only person in the car, and this is my daily driver
Here's what i'm thinking so far for my 2002 WRX sedan:
Head Unit: Kenwood DNX5140 (6140 if i decide bluetooth is worth the $$) Sub: a single JL Audio 12w6v2 in a 1.25 cu.ft. sealed enclosure AMP: JL audio 500/1
I haven't decided on speakers yet. I won't ask for brand/model recs b/c there are 4000 threads and i can search more on that later. Also, spare me the JL is overpriced/overrated bit.
My questions are:
1. I'm under the impression that i should get some nice 6.5" components up front....and some 5.25" coaxial's in the back for some fill. Is this considered the 'ideal' set up? I don't like the idea of no rear speakers....the sound isn't full enough for me.
2. From what i read...i was going to get an external amp for the front speakers, but run the rear speakers off the head unit. I'm a bit confused about this Is this what is considered the proper set up?....why not just get a nice external 4 channel amp and run all the speakers?
3. If it's correct to run the rear speakers off of the HU...the DNX5140 is rated at RMS: 22 watts x 4 channels, since i'd use an external amp for the front 2 speakers, are you able to bridge the channels to the rear speakers to get 44 wats RMS x 2 channels so i can get some better speakers?
4. Generally, what kind of RMS range should i be looking for in my front and rear speakers to be able to get good SQ, and pair well with the 12w6v2?
5. The DNX5140 has separate high/low pass filter adjustments front the front vs rear speakers. Does that mean that the actual filters are in the head unit or does this somehow control external ones that i would need to purchase and install when i install the speakers?
6. I realllllly don't want to have to upgrade the electrical system very much at all. I was going to do the Big 3 upgrade and call it done. Given what i want to do with my system, am i definitely going to need a new battery too? A new alternator? I'm 1/2 OK with getting a new battery....but if this system is too much for the stock alternator, i'm going to downsize....i just don't have the funds for a complete electrical system upgrade.
I know that's a lot of questions, but i would greatly appreciate some input.
_________________________
John
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#1725142 - 10/25/09 11:15 PM
Re: designing my system....questions
[Re: swanjm5]
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keep_hope_alive
in another life, i'm a serial killer
SD I Power Bombed the Undertaker
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 13370
Loc: Quad Cities, IL
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JL is great stuff.
1. comp fronts, coax rears are typical. nothing wrong with that.
2. you want the most power for the front speakers. if you get a 4 channel amp (and you should), bridge it to the front speakers for maximum power... or run active. you want most of the sound coming from the front - giving the fronts much more power lets that happen easily. you also get the best performance. "rear fill" is helped when the rear speakers aren't equally loud as the front (there are other aspects to it as well).
3. you can't bridge a head unit. here is why: http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1076928
4. try to get 200W RMS available to the front speakers. you certainly won't use it all, but you want headroom and clean, dynamic power. as amplifier power output increases, so does THD. you want to operate with as little THD as possible. therefore, have more power than you need. highest THD is at rated power output.
5. look for a head unit with time alignment.
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#1725144 - 10/25/09 11:24 PM
Re: designing my system....questions
[Re: keep_hope_alive]
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keep_hope_alive
in another life, i'm a serial killer
SD I Power Bombed the Undertaker
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 13370
Loc: Quad Cities, IL
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sorry, got cut short.
5. you want time alignment in your HU. since you are usually alone, it makes sense to time align for a good sound stage.
having crossovers in the head unit allows you go make adjustments from the driver's seat - listening to the changes, and even doing it on the road. they can supplement the amp crossovers, or add to them. they won't replace the passive crossovers that come with the speakers unless you are powering each speaker (each tweeter and each woofer) separately. we call this running "active" meaning each individual speaker has it's own amplifier channel. with a 4 channel amp you can power the component tweeters from channels 1&2 and the component woofers from channels 3&4. HOWEVER, you need a crossover in the 3-4kHz range, and most amps don't come with that. so you need a head unit that is designed for running active, meaning built-in crossovers. or, you can buy an external active crossover and split the front RCA output before the amp. part of running active means your crossovers are electronic, before or in the amp.
the coaxial speakers usually won't allow for this since the tweeter crossover is usually built-in. some speakers are component but allow for a coaxial mount of the tweeter. if it has an external passive crossover and you can choose where you want to mount the tweeter, we call it a "component set".
6. the stock alternator will be fine. you may need a new battery, they are only good for 4 years or so anyway, and the new system will tax an old one. the big 3 will help. if you want to do it once and be done - use 1/0 wire for the big 3 and any power/ground. you will reduce voltage drop for the whole system and even the whole vehicle - which is a very good thing.
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#1725146 - 10/25/09 11:35 PM
Re: designing my system....questions
[Re: keep_hope_alive]
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keep_hope_alive
in another life, i'm a serial killer
SD I Power Bombed the Undertaker
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 13370
Loc: Quad Cities, IL
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there are several good head units to look at for an SQ system. which one depends on your wallet.
you can buy new or used. good, flexible, used head units with 6 channel time alignment and crossovers can be had for as little as $200. new head units with the same features vary between $500-$1200.
Used, the Alpine CDA-9815, CDA-9835, CDA-9855 all had the aforementioned features. not sure but an optional bluetooth adapter may be compatible, call Alpine if you consider that route. the Eclipse 7200mkII or Pioneer 800/880PRS are both flexible, new units. but if money is an issue, you can sometimes get a lot more bang for your buck buying used - if you're willing to accept the risk.
but don't used if you can help it. get new and get a warranty, i.e. buy authorized and buy local. you may pay a bit more now, but it usually pays off in the end.
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#1725326 - 10/26/09 10:56 AM
Re: designing my system....questions
[Re: keep_hope_alive]
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swanjm5
SD Newbie
Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 7
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Thanks a ton for taking the time on that post. I have a few clarification questions.
2. you want the most power for the front speakers. if you get a 4 channel amp (and you should), bridge it to the front speakers for maximum power... or run active. you want most of the sound coming from the front - giving the fronts much more power lets that happen easily. you also get the best performance. "rear fill" is helped when the rear speakers aren't equally loud as the front (there are other aspects to it as well).
A. Why not just buy a 2 channel amp if i'm going to bridge them?
B. Can you explain this "or run active". you're talking about active/passive crossovers i assume. Where passive have pre set ranges....but active you can change the range and the slope? You make it seem as though running active is an alternative to giving the front's more power than the rears. I don't understand why i wouldn't buy a 2 channel amp for the fronts, and run the rears off of the 22RMS i can get from the HU. Is something wrong with that idea?
5. look for a head unit with time alignment.
When selecting a head unit my #1 consideration that it must include a GPS. #2and 3 were price and it's sound options. After tons of reaseacch it seemed like i should choose between a pioneer or kenwood, though i briefly considered other models as well. Ended up liking the Kenwood DNX5140. Can you recommend something else if this "time alignment" is necessary? Is this time alignment a way to delay the front speakers a fraction of a second from firing so the sound from the rear speakers has time to travel up to the front?
B. People keep mentioning "this HU has a 4v output instead of 2" or the like. I was under the assumption that the RMS outage was the most important aspect...so you could but a speaker that wouldn't be under/overpowered by it. Can you explain the difference/benefit? And should it influence which HU i choose?
_________________________
John
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#1725330 - 10/26/09 11:07 AM
Re: designing my system....questions
[Re: keep_hope_alive]
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swanjm5
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Registered: 10/15/09
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sorry, got cut short.
having crossovers in the head unit allows you go make adjustments from the driver's seat - listening to the changes, and even doing it on the road. they can supplement the amp crossovers, or add to them.
A. How would i know whether to use the amp ones, HU ones, or both?
they won't replace the passive crossovers that come with the speakers unless you are powering each speaker (each tweeter and each woofer) separately. we call this running "active" meaning each individual speaker has it's own amplifier channel. with a 4 channel amp you can power the component tweeters from channels 1&2 and the component woofers from channels 3&4.
A. I was planning on running the 500/1 to a 12w6v2. Wouldn't that power the sub MUCH better? So does this apply to me?
HOWEVER, you need a crossover in the 3-4kHz range, and most amps don't come with that. so you need a head unit that is designed for running active, meaning built-in crossovers. or, you can buy an external active crossover and split the front RCA output before the amp.
A. Doesn't the Kenwood DNX5140 have active cross overs built in? Which means i don't need any external crossovers? I'm looking for something a little more plug and play hopefully.
part of running active means your crossovers are electronic, before or in the amp. the coaxial speakers usually won't allow for this since the tweeter crossover is usually built-in. some speakers are component but allow for a coaxial mount of the tweeter. if it has an external passive crossover and you can choose where you want to mount the tweeter, we call it a "component set".
A. So a component set of speakers has an external passive cross over that i mount somewhere inside the door with the speaker? And just for a conceptual clarification: So the headunit, since it has cross over installed...will filter out certain all frequencies below X going to the front speakers. Then, somewhere along the electrical circuit will be a passive crossover that will filter out even more frequencies going to the tweeter, but all of the frequencies i allowed the HU crossover to send will be recieved by the actual speaker portion (the non tweeter part).
Thanks for your help. Anybody else have some input?
_________________________
John
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#1725451 - 10/26/09 01:18 PM
Re: designing my system....questions
[Re: swanjm5]
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zierbox
Only The Very Best
SD Ralph Wiggum
Registered: 02/22/08
Posts: 44
Loc: Texas
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You have a lot going on for being new to car Audio I commend your research and effort to educating your self
You are taking on a substantial project with a complete Car Audio make over I didn’t see any reference to the budget for this project
My very first suggestion would be “Simplify” Complicated or fancy headunits do offer a wide range of versatility and features However theses controls, setting and features can only be useful with advanced experience and in-depth understanding. When you have a dozen or more settings or controls that can make your Audio System sound BAD and only a few of the right combination to sound good.
I just trying so tell you I deal with customers daily that push one or two button and put their whole system out of wack
You’re considering a two amplifier set up A 500.1 and a 12” is a lot bass
I would recommend one multi channel amp 4-5 or 6 channels (a four is all I think you need) One amp is easier to deal with and less expensive less space, wire, connections and labor
All you need is the settings on the amplifier (set once)
_________________________
25 years of Car Audio Over 20 Magazine Featured Vehicles World Championships World Records World Class New Car Audio Forum zierbox.com/forum http://www.zierbox.comtz@zierbox.com
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#1725465 - 10/26/09 01:33 PM
Re: designing my system....questions
[Re: zierbox]
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swanjm5
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Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 7
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You have a lot going on for being new to car Audio I commend your research and effort to educating your self
You are taking on a substantial project with a complete Car Audio make over I didn’t see any reference to the budget for this project
My very first suggestion would be “Simplify” Complicated or fancy headunits do offer a wide range of versatility and features However theses controls, setting and features can only be useful with advanced experience and in-depth understanding. When you have a dozen or more settings or controls that can make your Audio System sound BAD and only a few of the right combination to sound good.
I just trying so tell you I deal with customers daily that push one or two button and put their whole system out of wack
You’re considering a two amplifier set up A 500.1 and a 12” is a lot bass
I would recommend one multi channel amp 4-5 or 6 channels (a four is all I think you need) One amp is easier to deal with and less expensive less space, wire, connections and labor
All you need is the settings on the amplifier (set once)
I definitely am going headstrong into this. I've been interested in upgrading my car audio for a long long time...but always seem to spend that money elsewhere. I'm committed now. That said, the reason i'm going to fully into this and doing a full make over is because i have a complex where i can't accept entry level things. I figure that i can save money, go entry level....and within a short amount of time, i'll recognize where those systems are lacking (though i might not at the moment)....and i'll want to upgrade again later. So i just do it all right the first time...
I agree that i don't know anything about how to "tune" the many aspects of the system. Here was my plan....after installing (which i think i can manage by myself, more to come on that in a bit), i was going to go to a car audio place and be like "Look, i have all of this stuff, and don't know how to properly work it. I'll give you $20 (or 40 or whatever) if you come spend a half hour with me, and tune it while you give me a basic explanation of what you're doing."
After that, i was hoping that it would be a 'set it and forget it' kind of thing. In reality, once it was all set, the only thing i figured i would ever need to control regularly was the level of bass depending if i'm listening to rap vs rock etc...And maybe turn up/down the highs/mids every now and then (but i was hoping it'd be as easy as adjusting one setting, like in a stock system)...just changing the level of boost each gets.
I realize that that sub is pretty bassy, but when i listen to rap i want to be able to run the bass a little rich for that "i'm still a teenager type feel" the reason i'm doing it with the 12w6v2 is because it will be MUUUCH cleaner....and less WAY OVER THE TOP SPL THAT BLOWS OUT YOUR EARS kind of thing....i think that is as good an explanation as i have.
As for the install: Yeah, i plan on installing myself with the aid of a friend who has done his own stuff once or twice.
I'm typically mechanically inclined, and can figure stuff out as i go pretty well. There are probably a bunch of Install guides floating around here which i'll use to help out.
Doesn't seem like it's a very difficult process if you do a bit of planning. Never done it though, so we'll see.
If this fits in my 2002 wrx sedan this is what i plan to do:
Mount the sub amp under the passenger seat, speaker amp under the driver seat. Somehow have both of the power wires going up the driver side floor runners, with the RCA's going out to the passenger side. This is probably going to be the hardest part...having a wire go from under the passenger seat over to the driver side...and vice versa. Any suggestions?
To mount each amp i was planning on getting a piece of MDF or something, velcro the bottom side of it to the floor under the carpet (so it doesn't slide around). Lay the carpet back over i. Screw the amp to the MDF, through the carpet. I figure this will be secure enough, no? Does this seem like it'll work, or is there a better way? Will the carpet have enough "slack" in it to make it all the way back over to the edge of the car and still tuck into the runner boards (or however the edges are tucked) or will there be a gap between the end of the carpet and the side of the car?
Then, i'd look up some guide on how to run the RCA cable to the back of the head unit from the passenger side floor board.....swap out the head units..... plug it all in...
I guess one thing i haven't considered yet is the wires from the speaker amp to the speakers themseves. I haven't really looked into what this process entails...I guess there is some sort of sleeve in the side of a door so cables came come from the car to inside the door.....and you run the wires through there? Then if that's the case i could bring the driver side's from under the carpet somehow (again, suggestions welcome).
Sub is going to be rear firing in the trunk....i'll look into some guides to find out where people ran their wires from the cabin to the trunk. Also, i haven't considered how to secure the amp properly.
I haven't considered where i could ground the amps with these 'under-seat' mounts. I figure some guides will have some ideas....but suggestions are welcome. I'm not super worried about the amp sticking out slightly...but i don't want it showing very much for theft reasons. As far as adjustments...it's just as much a pain in the ass to walk around the the back of the car as it is to get on your knees and go under the seat...that doesn't seem like a big issue for me. Plus...i feel like once i get it dialed in, how often will i really adjust the amps? I'm hoping it's a one and done situation.
.maybe i should consider just mounting both amps on either side of the box? Really the only reason i was putting them under the seats was because i was worried about stuff banging around in my trunk...or rattling the amps to death.
This is the general idea i have, but i haven't looked into install guides yet to see if this is a good idea/semi easy. I came up with this pan randomly based on 3 concepts: 1. I want to keep a 100% stock look 2.i was told not to mount the amps on the speaker box b/c it can rattle the internals and possibly cause damage 3. i'm not sure where else i could install the amps in the trunk....i really want to have a usable trunk and dont' want the system taking up the entire thing...or have to worry about stuff sliding around in my trunk and unplugging wires and busting through my sub (i'm slightly concerned about the safety of my sub. I'll use an amp Grill....but some of them (like the JL audio ones) look like they'd only prevent a large box from going through the sub...not smaller things sliding around
Super long post...hopefully somebody makes it all the way through!
Edited by swanjm5 (10/26/09 01:36 PM)
_________________________
John
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#1725506 - 10/26/09 02:27 PM
Re: designing my system....questions
[Re: swanjm5]
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zierbox
Only The Very Best
SD Ralph Wiggum
Registered: 02/22/08
Posts: 44
Loc: Texas
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Looks like you will be spending an easy 3,000.00 on equipment and materials
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25 years of Car Audio Over 20 Magazine Featured Vehicles World Championships World Records World Class New Car Audio Forum zierbox.com/forum http://www.zierbox.comtz@zierbox.com
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#1725513 - 10/26/09 03:03 PM
Re: designing my system....questions
[Re: zierbox]
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swanjm5
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Registered: 10/15/09
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Looks like you will be spending an easy 3,000.00 on equipment and materials
Probably not. With minimal shopping around for the absolute lowest price:
Kenwood DNX5140 head unit: $550 Single JL audio 12w6v2 sub: $300 JL audio 500/1 amp: $300 4 gauge kicker amp install kit: $30 1.25 cu.ft. sealed Box: I'll make it for <$50 Front set of component speakers: Haven't shopped brands/models yet but what... $200 for a high end set? 4 channel amp for front speakers: again, haven't shopped brands/models but....<$300 for something high end i imagine Kicker amp install kit for speakers: $30 Supplies for big 3 upgrade: haven't checked prices...but i assume ~$50?
That's <$2000 for a complete audio make over with pretty high end stuff.
_________________________
John
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