#1496540 - 22/09/08 07:11 PM
Is FLAC as good as CD?
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TtownCLS
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This question came up while discussing the poor recording practices used these days. I've posted before about what compressing music into MP3 format does to your recordings. I decided to take a song that I like and compare the original CD recording to a FLAC version of it. The song?? Steve Winwood "Higher Love" It has a nice percussion intro, and some decent dynamics. Steve's voice is pretty "thin" sounding compared to some, but that makes it even harder for an ordinary system to produce it realistically. So here's the results.
Doing an A/B comparison between the FLAC recording and the original CD, I sat in the car with just these two discs and played them both several times without looking at which disc I was listening to. The volume seemed identical. The only thing I could pick out was one of them seemed to have a little better dynamics than the other. For those who have never heard that term before, it's basically the difference between the "soft" parts of a track and the "loud" parts of the track. One of the discs seemed to have a little more definition between the soft and loud parts of the song, and there were some very faint details that were more clear in the same disc. Before we discuss which was the better one, let's look at the analysis.
This is a shot of Nero wave editor viewing the data of both recordings.
They look identical right? Well if you look very close you'll see that the level of the peaks is slightly higher on one. The good news is the frequency response (shown in the bottom bars) is identical. The higher peaks are what make the dynamics seem slightly better. The top is the FLAC and the bottom is the original. The original has the better dynamics and detail. Speaking of that detail, let's look at the data a little closer.
What I noticed is the peaks here are a little sharper and little more "fat" in spots on the original CD (bottom), which is slightly more data. Honestly, most would never hear those differnces on an average car audio system and I even found it hard to pick up on while driving. It was noticeable only while sitting in my quiet garage listening. So the verdict would be; If you want to listen to what was intended by the artist, and tend to listen closely for detail, you need to stick to the original recording. For daily listening on an average audio system while driving, you probably won't notice. I still prefer the original just in case, and besides, my audio system is not "average" 
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#1496570 - 22/09/08 08:07 PM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: TtownCLS]
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keep_hope_alive
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very nice write-up. did you just paste two screen shots together in paint or did you get wave editor to display two files at once? i need to use that program again.
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#1496672 - 23/09/08 04:10 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: keep_hope_alive]
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TtownCLS
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It's actually two instances of the editor open at the same time. I just aligned them so you can see the differences.
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#1496750 - 23/09/08 07:34 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: MA585]
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bikinpunk
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Interesting. I get almost all my music in flac format. Then I convert to wav via Nero when I make a cd. I typically have redundant copies of CDs: one for ‘reference’ listening (.wav) and one for iPod listening (.flac/.alac). I never measured the 2 against each other. The only reason I had different versions is so I can make use of the optical connection on the h/u via CD.
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#1496959 - 23/09/08 10:19 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: bikinpunk]
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JDAccord
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i wish we could figure a way to rip a true 100% lossless copy into wav or another format that ipods support. changing cd's sucks.
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#1496988 - 23/09/08 10:46 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: JDAccord]
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TtownCLS
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From what I've been reading. Apple claims the data is an exact duplicate of the original and listed some samples. What I experienced says there is a very small difference, but I'm wondering if the losses I had were caused when returning the file from FLAC to WAV and burned to a disc. I wonder if those losses would be present if I had an ultra high quality burning station to do nothing but convert FLAC to CD's and burned them at 1X speed. The details of how the CODEC works, says it should be able to pack the audio data and unpack it to the original condition. I don't use an IPOD so I likely won't find out. It would be nice to have a way of archiving CD's. I've lost a lot of disks that are not easily replaced.
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#1496989 - 23/09/08 10:49 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: JDAccord]
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keep_hope_alive
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even a cd changer sucks? i think it's a nice way to get a good selection with optimal quality. sure, it's old school, but nothing wrong with that.
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#1497016 - 23/09/08 11:05 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: keep_hope_alive]
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SuperJay
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when I rip "lossless" in iTunes, it records at 909kbps. while this is significantly better than the 196kbps that we are used to seeing from iTunes, it isn't the original recording.
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#1497032 - 23/09/08 11:15 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: SuperJay]
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bikinpunk
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lossless = digital = 1, 0's, no?
There was a huge thread on this on DIY last week.
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#1497129 - 23/09/08 12:53 PM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: JDAccord]
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bikinpunk
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right. compressed. I think of lossless as a zip file. All the info is there. It's just squeezed.
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#1497131 - 23/09/08 12:55 PM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: bikinpunk]
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bikinpunk
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FWIW, I A/B’d a 24bit/196khz track vs. a standard 16bit/24khz version. Couldn’t tell a difference at all.
I then A/B’d from .flac to .wav. Couldn’t hear a difference. I need to check .alac (apple lossless) but I’m sure the results would be the same. Especially for our purpose (in car use).
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#1497262 - 23/09/08 04:47 PM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: JDAccord]
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gmac22
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i thought flac was supposed to be a true lossless format... meaning all the 1's and 0's on that original cd will still be there after the flac is uncompressed. have i been wrong on this assumption?
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#1497307 - 23/09/08 06:47 PM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: gmac22]
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TtownCLS
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^^ Nope. You are correct on that assumption. It appears that the problem is occuring when converting the FLAC back to WAV to burn it onto a disk. I still want to try converting a FLAC back to WAV and burn on a dedicated burner at 1X speed and see if the loss is still there. So the good news is you should get excellent results using an iPod to play the original FLAC.
The intent here was not to say you HAVE to use a CD, but to see if losses occur and why. I'm trying to see if any of the compressed forms of music are actually true to the original, just thought I would share my results as I get them.
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#1497489 - 24/09/08 05:46 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: keep_hope_alive]
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TtownCLS
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^^ That's my thoughts exactly. For normal everyday listening while driving, the FLAC is fine. I wouldn't use it for judging or tuning though. The FLAC may keep the original data, but a lot of things can happen when returning that file back to the original WAV to be burned to disk.
As for being able to hear a difference, it's all dependant on the resolution of the system you are listening to. To see how much this effects things, I tried the A/B comparison using my wifes car with the factory system in it. I couldn't tell a difference at all. I could, however, tell a huge difference between MP3 at 320kbit/s compared to the original CD. So you can get better sound even in a factory system just by using real uncompressed CD's.
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#1497634 - 24/09/08 08:35 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: JDAccord]
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St. Dark
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right. compressed. I think of lossless as a zip file. All the info is there. It's just squeezed. think of an mp3 as that, but the algorithms aren't perfect, otherwise it'd be able to extrapolate all the compressed info.
MP3 is a lossy compression, it DOES eliminate information. All the info is NOT there; it's assumed that it's absence won't be noticed.
Lossless compressions are just that- bit for bit identical when decoded (or at least are supposed to be, if they are not then they are not supposed to referred to as lossless!). A truly lossless compression is as bikinpunk said (funny, I've used that same analogy myself for people!).
Edited by St. Dark (24/09/08 08:43 AM)
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#1497639 - 24/09/08 08:38 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: bikinpunk]
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St. Dark
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FWIW, I A/B’d a 24bit/196khz track vs. a standard 16bit/24khz version. Couldn’t tell a difference at all.
I then A/B’d from .flac to .wav. Couldn’t hear a difference. I need to check .alac (apple lossless) but I’m sure the results would be the same. Especially for our purpose (in car use).
Just for the sake of curiosity, was the 24/196 track originally that? Or did it come from a 16/44 disc? I would think that the potential exists for the 24/196 to perform better if originally recorded in that resolution or better but just transcoding something into that wouldn't get ya anything.
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#1497640 - 24/09/08 08:42 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: St. Dark]
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bikinpunk
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it was an original.
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#1499600 - 26/09/08 05:19 PM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: bikinpunk]
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chipperoh
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what is a flac file? where do you get them from?
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#1499608 - 26/09/08 05:37 PM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: chipperoh]
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JDAccord
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flac is just a file format, like mp3.
you get it when you rip a cd using a flac encoder.
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#1500255 - 28/09/08 02:50 PM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: TtownCLS]
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effenay
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Sorry, but I disagree with the conclusions being drawn here.
There's nothing "wrong" with the FLAC format. When you convert a CD track into FLAC format, you will always be able to perfectly reconstruct the original WAV data. Given a proper playback system, FLAC decodes bit-perfectly and therefore will always measure the same as the original. That's the whole point of lossless compression.
Therefore, if you're seeing differences between the two versions, it's because of one of the following reasons:
- There is something flawed in your CD ripping process
- There is something flawed in your encoding process
- There is something flawed in your decoder or playback system
- There is something flawed in your measurement system
- You're not comparing the same data
To the OP: How was the FLAC file encoded? Did you encode it yourself using the same CD you're comparing it to, or did you download it elsewhere? Obviously, if you aren't comparing the FLAC file to its original CD source, there may be differences due to other factors such as the original mix.
If you ripped and encoded the file yourself, what software did you use?
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#1500453 - 29/09/08 04:21 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: effenay]
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TtownCLS
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Sorry, but I disagree with the conclusions being drawn here.
There's nothing "wrong" with the FLAC format. When you convert a CD track into FLAC format, you will always be able to perfectly reconstruct the original WAV data. Given a proper playback system, FLAC decodes bit-perfectly and therefore will always measure the same as the original. That's the whole point of lossless compression.
Therefore, if you're seeing differences between the two versions, it's because of one of the following reasons:
- There is something flawed in your CD ripping process
- There is something flawed in your encoding process
- There is something flawed in your decoder or playback system
- There is something flawed in your measurement system
- You're not comparing the same data
To the OP: How was the FLAC file encoded? Did you encode it yourself using the same CD you're comparing it to, or did you download it elsewhere? Obviously, if you aren't comparing the FLAC file to its original CD source, there may be differences due to other factors such as the original mix.
If you ripped and encoded the file yourself, what software did you use?
I actually said that I suspected the problem was occuring during the conversion back to a disk. The FLAC appears to be completely lossles, but when burned back to a disk, it has "some" loss. Not a lot, but some. I believe it is happening during the burn process. I'm going to test that theory soon. The FLAC was ripped from the original CD with EAC. All the burning and measurements were done using Nero Ultra.
Just so theres no more confusion. The loss didn't appear until the FLAC was burned back to disk. Again, this is likely due to the burning process. I plan to do this test again and burn the disk at 1X speed onto a high quality CD. I suspect that will eliminate the loss.
The point here was to find if, when, and why losses occur and see what should be done to avoid them.
Edited by TtownCLS (29/09/08 04:30 AM)
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#1500464 - 29/09/08 05:16 AM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: TtownCLS]
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keep_hope_alive
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It doesn't matter if FLAC is lossless on the PC if it isn't lossless once it's burned to a disc to be played.
one fast test of your setup would be to burn a copy of an original.
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#1501764 - 30/09/08 06:36 PM
Re: Is FLAC as good as CD?
[Re: keep_hope_alive]
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TtownCLS
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I finally got around to testing the FLAC files a little more. The next step was to use a very high quality recording (Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disk) and rip a track to FLAC. I ripped track 3, Rebecca Pigeon, then converted it back to a WAV. Comparing the original WAV to the converted file showed NO loss at all. That at least proved to me that the loss is not occuring due to the FLAC conversion process. I then burned the track back to a high quality disk using full error correction and the highest quality settings in Nero Ultra. Here is what it looked like after being burned back to disk at the highest quality settings.
There's no detectable loss at all at this level of detail so I decided to go a little deeper.
Even at this level, there is no loss AT ALL. The trick appears to be using the highest quality burn settings, which means it's a little slower due to the error detection and lower burn speed. I say it's worth it. My verdict is; I finally found a compression method that I can use to archive CD's. I find it very impressive how accurate this is and it's a FREE codec. Just don't get in a hurry and use the high speed settings in your burning software when you burn them back to disk.
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