#1180509 - 21/08/07 05:55 PM
Fabrication
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SnakeBite
Never say No...Just over charge.
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Want to work with fiberglass, plexi, metal or exotic composites. Just ask! I have much experience building show vehicles and I am an artist on the side. I doubt I can be stumped, but I am up for the challenge. Try me.
Just remember one thing when it comes to fabrication. Vehicles should never be modified for its intended safety. Vehicles are designed today to save your life and let’s keep it that way. Also you never want the vehicle to inhibit day to day operation unless it is strictly a show vehicle. 
Edited by SnakeBite (21/08/07 07:09 PM)
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#1198961 - 12/09/07 09:15 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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speakermakers
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First off let me say great pic with the monkey jamming on the guitar!
How do you deal with shrinkage issues when you are filling a seam between two materials close to a surface that will be painted. For example, blending an ABS kit into an ABS or PC dash trim on an American vehicle like a jeep liberty or a Chevy pickup?
I have some methods that I use but I am always looking for that ultimate solution. In the past I have asked qualified individuals from select products as well as various individuals that I have met at MERA. They never have a decent answer. The normal answer is use less hardener in your body fillers. That’s a cop-out. All popular body fillers and polyester resins shrink 7-9%. This is a tough one but I am curious. Do you have the solution?
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Performance first! I say what I do and do what I say. Deal with it. I don't know everything only because I choose to learn more every day.
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#1199058 - 13/09/07 04:35 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: speakermakers]
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SnakeBite
Never say No...Just over charge.
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When blending things to fit or what this industry calls " Beading" anything that has to be filled that is thicker than 1/4" should be filled with Marglass ( reinforced body filler) or something comparable. There is minimal shrinkage with Marglass and it will add tons of strength.
Then your bondo/ bodyfiller coat will be very thin where shrinkage is not an issue.
I always try to use the minimal amout of hardener for each situation i use it in. If you mix hardener to hot it can crack as wel, because of rapid shrinkage. If that area you are filling in is thin it will never create enough heat to warp or crack.
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#1200051 - 13/09/07 07:23 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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speakermakers
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I am afraid that I was looking for a better answer. Not that there is anything wrong with your solution. It might very well be the only solution when butting up two parts where the seam between the two is very close to the surface that will be painted. The problem with using any polyester based product is that it will continue to shrink for several days causing a line to appear under the paint (even with Marglass). Even when using the correct amount of hardener. The manufacturers of all major brand fillers agree on this.
The two solutions that I have been using work great but involve considerably more work.
Solution 1
Cover the entire surface with modified twill (a very formable fiberglass cloth) and use vinyl-ester instead of polyester (much stronger and forms a bond to your project similarly to the type of bond that you get with epoxies). Use a spiral roller to roll out excessive resin and achieve a smooth surface. Then skim with body filler. Now all shrinkage will be forced side to side instead of sinking from the surface down and will be resisted by the fiberglass mat. The problem with this method other than the extra time is that you add a minimum of 1/16” to the thickness of your project. Some times you will find your self in a 0 degree tolerance situation where this simply will not due.
Solution 2
Build your entire project normally and then cast a mold over the top of it (this must be done the same day). Now that you have a negative of your project you can cast replicas. In the event that I need a part that is absolutely perfect with no shrinkage and high strength I will lay up a glass/epoxy part (1-2% shrinkage). In the event that I can afford a little shrinkage over all I will just use Vinyl-ester/glass. Doing it this way I no longer have to worry about seam lines showing through the paint because it is one solid piece. Also I now have a mold that I can use for future replicas. For example I have a couple of molds for Chevy pu A pillars with tweeter mounts in them. I use these all the time.
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Performance first! I say what I do and do what I say. Deal with it. I don't know everything only because I choose to learn more every day.
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#1200076 - 13/09/07 08:12 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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speakermakers
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Usually transtar urethane primer. So is tooling resin your answer to my original question or is it Marglass? Care do divulge the remaining three processes that you mention you know of?
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Performance first! I say what I do and do what I say. Deal with it. I don't know everything only because I choose to learn more every day.
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#1200190 - 13/09/07 09:53 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: speakermakers]
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speakermakers
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I should add that I agree that my second option is not for the average shop or individual. See I work on installs that are in the 10-50K range and last anywhere from two weeks too 6 months every day. I realize that this is not the norm. But an installer in my position can not afford to have a comeback every 6 months. You asked for a challenge and here I am. You obviously know your stuff and are in a unique position much like myself to be exposed to cutting edge technique. I appreciate any further info you might have.
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Performance first! I say what I do and do what I say. Deal with it. I don't know everything only because I choose to learn more every day.
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#1201548 - 15/09/07 10:15 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: speakermakers]
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speakermakers
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?
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Performance first! I say what I do and do what I say. Deal with it. I don't know everything only because I choose to learn more every day.
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#1201750 - 16/09/07 12:33 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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SnakeBite
Never say No...Just over charge.
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First let’s start with the remaining three processes. Then I will talk about why I think you are having seam bleed through issues.
Processes
1. Vacuum forming: This is something I am getting into right now, using plastics, carbon fiber, and laminates. Here is an example of a home-made way to do this Vacuum Vid . Once you make your “plug” (by making a negative casting) you can mold anything in few minutes.
2. Silicone injection Molding: This requires a two part negative cast to poor various composites into to form your part. Using a silicone mold gives you the option to cast 5000+ parts from one silicone mold. Here is a link of an example of what can be done Silicone molding demo . Also is a link to show the different kinds of plastics and mold materials you can use. http://www.polytek.com/products/poly_plastics.html
3. From Scratch: Well this is basically making the whole thing from scratch using the normal fiber glassing techniques. This is pretty self-explanatory
Now let’s talk about your bleed through. Do you use an adhesive promoter on whatever plastic pieces you are going to finish? What type of plastic do you have this issue with? What grit are you sanding your part to before you cover with transtar urethane primer, and how many coats? Also what do you sand the primer to before paint. Finally after you paint what is your next process?
I need the rest of the answers to the question above to be totally sure what your issue is. As of this moment I your issue sounds like it is the transtar urethane primer. I think it’s the primer because it is urethane based but it’s a very good primer for something other than you is doing. The reason I say this it polyester resin as well as vinyl-ester will continue to gas off (cure) for a certain period of time. The urethane primer probably is porous to the “gassing off” causing the paint to swell in those joints, sanding scratches, anywhere to unlike materials meet. I know it is a sealer as well but it is not the same chemical make-up as polyester based composites.
I use and have never used anything else except a high build Polyester primer like this Poly here , which hardener is MEKP just like the resin. The primer will fill n pin holes and 220 grit sanding scratches when sprayed properly. It is polyester based and has "0" shrinkage, also seals the part completely from the “gassing off” of the part. It is the same chemical make-up as polyester resins so no contamination, rejection effects will occur. I have been successful with this method for over 10 years and teach this every month in a fabrication class.
Just to add one more thing.
It could also be the bonding method you are using to bond the structure to plastic. There are several types of plastic and it requires knowledge on how to fabricate with them.
Edited by SnakeBite (16/09/07 04:35 PM)
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#1201920 - 16/09/07 07:23 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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speakermakers
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You have brought up several very good points. All of which I have all ready investigated and rejected as the core problem. And let me say once again that If I did not think that you might have the answers that I am looking for that I would not be wasting my time. And thank you for your time. First let’s start with the material that I am bonding to. I have experienced this problem with numerous types of materials. I am convinced that the prep of the materials is not the problem. Last year I had some shrinkage problems when butting up two ¼” thick pieces of flat aluminum together. The two pieces where bolted together by placing another 1/4” piece beneath the joint. After that I was left with a paper thin joint between the two surface pieces. I filled the joint with Dynaglass, sanded with 80 grit and then smoothed over with Rage Extreme, sanded with 220. Then the piece was sprayed with the Transtar primer. After a month of being exposed to the summer heat the filler in the joint shrunk leaving a very visible line. Also I noticed that some 1/8” holes that I drilled (no dissimilar materials here) and filled on this same project did the same thing. I wish that I could post some pics but as far as I know this forum dose not allow that.
As far as how many coats of primer. I usually spray a single medium coat and then use guide coat to find imperfections, Fix them and then spray a final medium coat.
I have used Evercoat feather fill polyester based primer several times in the past. It’s a good primer and has its place. This primer dose shrink. Much like the Marglass shrinks. You can contact the manufacturer to confirm that. I did. I like the polyester based primer but the paint manufacturers will not guarantee the results when you use these primers. In short I have done my home work and the primer is not the problem. I have had the shrinkage problems even when I have textured and dyed my parts using sems products all around. I believe that the solution is a filler that shrinks 1-2% instead of 7-9%. I have found a product, Evercoat white marine filler. This filler shrinks much much less than other fillers. It is made to repair gelcoat both above and below the water line on boats. I have found dozens of uses for this low shrinkage filler around the shop. What I was hoping for was a solution along these lines. I thirst for knowledge and a value any additional information that I can get. I think that you have the ultimate job teaching this stuff. Thank you for your time and efforts. If you have any more information on this subject it will always be appreciated not only by myself but others as well.
_________________________
Performance first! I say what I do and do what I say. Deal with it. I don't know everything only because I choose to learn more every day.
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#1201931 - 16/09/07 07:55 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: speakermakers]
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SnakeBite
Never say No...Just over charge.
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Evercoat white marine filler is excellent stuff I have used that before. As for the aluminum joint you should have welded that together (but you probably didn’t have a tig/mig for aluminum)
I sorry you are having an issue with these method and believe me I wouldn’t want anything coming back for repairs. I have done what you are trying to do countless of times, in the beginning I had allot to learn and found what worked best for me. The last several years I have never had a fabrication job return for repairs. In the past few years I have built many show vehicles and have used most the methods described. Your methods that you are using and describing to me along with the products you use are excellent. I have been racking my brain all day trying to figure out your issue. I want to get to the bottom of this. I wish I could see the pictures it would defiantly help me.
I really think you have an excellent grasp and understanding of these methods. You probably are just like me spending too much time researching and developing new or better methods. You spend time with different composites. This makes me happy as so many people never take the time to educate themselves.
Transtar recommends 2-3 coats of primer Transtar info sheet You say you are using one coat that might be thin enough to allow the polyester product to “gas off” I really doubt this is it but I can’t think of anything else at the moment.
Let me ponder this and see what I can come up with
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#1208467 - 24/09/07 07:29 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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speakermakers
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I have a question. You gave me a link to polytech, a company that makes polyurethane casting plastics. I have recently (year or so) been using a ton of this stuff. Up until now I have never heard of anyone ells in car audio using it. I would like to know if you have any cool applications for this line of products. I have personally developed several very exiting uses and am down to exchange useful info.
_________________________
Performance first! I say what I do and do what I say. Deal with it. I don't know everything only because I choose to learn more every day.
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#1208528 - 24/09/07 08:43 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: speakermakers]
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speakermakers
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Specifically the plastics not the silicone products.
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Performance first! I say what I do and do what I say. Deal with it. I don't know everything only because I choose to learn more every day.
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#1210416 - 26/09/07 10:56 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: speakermakers]
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speakermakers
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No?
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Performance first! I say what I do and do what I say. Deal with it. I don't know everything only because I choose to learn more every day.
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#1210533 - 27/09/07 06:56 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: speakermakers]
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SnakeBite
Never say No...Just over charge.
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i just started looking into that stuff I Havent used that particular stuff yet but I am planning on getting some of it soon.
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#1225141 - 16/10/07 07:57 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: speakermakers]
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zchmiel
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hey snakebite I had a quick question, ok ive done plenty of fiberglass projects now but everytime i do a full trunk setup i always seem to run into the same problem, getting the trunk perfectly symmetrical(1 sub on each side)any suggestions for making this task easier?
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#1225164 - 16/10/07 08:08 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: zchmiel]
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SnakeBite
Never say No...Just over charge.
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make router templates and patterns so you can duplicate both sides easy. I will usually buid both sides at the same time. Duplicating to like sides is the hardest thing to do in fabrication. It takes good planning, measuring and experience.
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#1225208 - 16/10/07 08:29 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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SuperJay
I made this!!
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it took me several attempts to get even close to symmetry. I've had less experience than snake at fabrication, but I can tell you that if your frame is symmetrical, then you have a better chance of the final product being symmetrical. Good luck
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more fun than a well oiled midget The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill i say somethin' stupid everyday, nothin' new  - Flattop 
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#1225229 - 16/10/07 08:39 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SuperJay]
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SnakeBite
Never say No...Just over charge.
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exactly
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#1297627 - 21/01/08 12:34 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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andy007
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I want to use my BMW M3, (useless)sunglasses holder for my 'bluetouch and garmin sat nav systems, how can i use the drawer front(so it looks the same) and make the drawer come out further, there is space to fit deeper stuff, i idealy would like to make it electric.
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#1297846 - 21/01/08 11:15 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: andy007]
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SnakeBite
Never say No...Just over charge.
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I need to see a picture of all the stuff you want to do
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#1297848 - 21/01/08 11:16 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: andy007]
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SnakeBite
Never say No...Just over charge.
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I need to see a picture of all the stuff you want to do
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#1313532 - 08/02/08 08:26 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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Deezy1678
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I've asked around to a lot of people on how to secure fiberglass to the interior panels (kicks, doors) and no one seems to have a good answer.
I'm building some door panels and because the panel has some contours, I made a FG mold out of the panel.
I was thinking that I could drill several holes through the mold and the door panel and place 1" bolts through. Then glass over the top of the bolt so it becomes part of the mold. This way after building the top of the Pod (for Kicker SMB8's), I can simply put the bolts (now part of the enclosure) through the holes and bolt them on to the back side of the door panel. Cut a hole, run the wires, and be done.
Also, I cant decide if I want to paint or vinyl...both are a PITA as far as sanding, but Ive never done vinyl. Any suggestions on brands of vinyl to lay over the pods?? Also, any tips on doing vinyl would help too. Ive done carpet, paint, and color matching/texture. I really think vinyl would be the best for keeping the OEM look vs some radical color or mismatched texture.
Thanks a ton,
Drew
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#1313582 - 08/02/08 09:28 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: Deezy1678]
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SnakeBite
Never say No...Just over charge.
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Your Bolting Idea is perfect. However I would resin a small block of wood that the bolt would go through as well, Everything else exactly the way you described.
Any Good 2-way or 4 way strech Vinyl will do just fine. A heat gun some good glue ( I use HVLP Contact cement) and lots of strecthing
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#1403701 - 27/05/08 02:48 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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J'sHonda
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hey i saw a video on youtube of making a fiberglass sub box. the guy made the box out of wood then fleeced the front and put the resin on it then instead of laying fiberglass and more resin on top of the fleece he spread some sort of paste on it, looked like putty or something on it then sanded it and painted it and it looked good. i don't know but this seems easier that fiberglassing. i'm not sure what he did exactly the vid was very vague and it was just music in the background, but could you tell me what sort of product he was using if you know and where to get it. Thanks.
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#1406107 - 29/05/08 06:34 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: imtfox]
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J'sHonda
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so was he just putting a layer of this of first possibly. i see your point.
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#1504162 - 03/10/08 10:34 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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Lash
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SnakeBite,
I'm a total newbie but I have a dream, a subwoofer dream.
I drive a VW Eos Hardtop Convertible, and when the top is down the trunk is pretty much full.
What I'd like to do is replace the Ski Pass-thru piece (it's removable) with a Shallowmount Sub box that's basically the same dimensions as the pass-thru.
Is it possible to get a mold off something like that, or would you try to shape a piece of Styrofoam to fit and then glass over that?
Maybe it's a weird idea, but I don't need neighborhood shaking bass, and I think if done right it would be pretty cool.
Thanks for any ideas,
Lash
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#1517237 - 23/10/08 09:09 PM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: SnakeBite]
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siucsaluki11
n00b who enjoys angering the SDOT guys when i get bored
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I have a 2000 Chevy blazer that currently has 2 12" Clarion PXW1251 subs. The box is big and bulky, and I have no room in the cargo area to put anything anymore. It sucks when i want to go fishing since my fishing gear no long fits. Also I work for a subcontractor as well as go to school full time, so it is nice to be able to have that cargo space to use so I can still have room for people to sit instead of having the rear seats being filled with blueprints and school books and what not. I decided that I am going to put in a new system. I have a long list of things I am going to install, and I intend on doing it all myself. This is something that I find extremely interesting, and actually did all the work for the current system myself and with the help of a friend who has some experience running wires and hiding them. To my point... well, actually i thought of a few more things, sorry. I am going to be buying 2 JL Audio 10W6v2 subs and was wondering if i should keep my current amps (each pushing 500RMS at 2 ohms) or get a JL 1000/1v2 for the subs and since i plan on amping the new door speakers i am purchasing (focal 165A1 for the front and 165CA1 in the rear) a JL 300/4v2. I would like to have the back look something like the finished product in the link at the end of this message. The biggest difference is i would like to put one sub on each side. I was wondering how hard it is to work with fiberglass and building a custom box and amp rack like this and if you had any tips/suggestions. Also, what should i do to avoid standing waves with such a setup. From what i learned in physics that could be a potential issue in such a setup. I was thinking of either staggering them slightly either vertically or latterally since i dont think it would be easy to do or good for the subs to do such an enclosure with the subs angled. Also i was planning on building an amp rack on each side of the set up as well as mounting surface for the crossovers for the components and a place for the cap. Now i just thought of a few more questions. What gauge wire, what size fuse, and what size cap would you reccomend? Sorry this is so long and thank you for any and all help.
http://www.x5world.com/articles/x5/stereo/9517-audio-upgrade-bmw-x5-4-6is-janix.html
Edited by siucsaluki11 (23/10/08 09:10 PM)
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YOU JUST LOST THE GAME!!!!
==============================
2 Clarion PXW1251 subs
2 Blaupunkt PCA1350 amps
MTX 6.5" door speakers
Kenwood head unit
================================================
Comming soon, (2) RE SE15D4 subs, Hifonics amps, 6.5" component door speakers and JVC AR8500 head unit.
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#1517995 - 25/10/08 09:30 AM
Re: Fabrication
[Re: siucsaluki11]
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93_chevy
sh!t talker...yeah
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snake.
i consider myself a competent fabricator, but not a bad a$s or anything by any means.
i have been wanting to to incorporate some aluminum in some of my installs but am not sure where to start.
first of all where you can buy affordable (relative) aluminum sheets?
second of all how would a go about cutting aluminum, especially thicker stuff like 1/4.."
like lets say i want to make some aluminum trim rings for some subs. i would countersink the sub down to leave 1/4" for the ring to sit on top. i guess after that make a wood template and then transfer that to the aluminum? can you rough cut aluminum that thick with a jigsaw and standard metal blade? would i need to buy a special metal bits for aluminum?
could i use my jasper jig with my spiral bit to skip having to make a wooden jig? maybe do like 2 passes and take 1/8" deep out each time? does my router need to be on a slower/faster speed?
do i need to lubricate while im cutting, if so what kind of lubricant.
any other tips and advice is greatly appreciated.
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